<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Would tropo ducting be stable enough for a TCP stream to send the video? I know of that one instance where South Australian TV was ducting through to Victoria, carrying Underbelly to the chagrin of lawmakers :) But it only lasted 10 or so minutes, IIRC</div><div><br></div><div><br><br>On 28/12/2011, at 14:02, "Peter Berrett" <<a href="mailto:p.berrett@optusnet.com.au">p.berrett@optusnet.com.au</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Thanks Mike</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">I am no expert in this field but it seems to me
that your calculations are predicated on a line of sight situation. I am well
aware of the curvature of the earth and understand why the Venzualans and
Italians have something of an advantage here with their high
mountains.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">There is a thing called tropospheric ducting
which, if the conditions are right, turns the atmosphere into a waveguide and
allows signals to propogate over distances greater than line of
site.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropospheric_propagation">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropospheric_propagation</a></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"><a href="http://www.dxinfocentre.com/propagation/tr-modes.htm">http://www.dxinfocentre.com/propagation/tr-modes.htm</a></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">To prove that this can be done here is a link to
the Australian vhf/uhf records</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"><a href="http://www.wia.org.au/members/records/data/">http://www.wia.org.au/members/records/data/</a></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"><a href="http://www.wia.org.au/members/records/data/documents/VHF%20Records%20History%20111218.pdf">http://www.wia.org.au/members/records/data/documents/VHF%20Records%20History%20111218.pdf</a></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">The National 2.4 ghz record for VK4OX to ZL1AVZ is
2,317.5 km which is certainly over the horizon. Now they will most likely have
been using voice or morse at 100 watts however it does illustrate that UHF
signals can propogate over longer distances using tropospheric
ducting.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"> </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Here's how I envisage a world record could be set.
We would enlist the support of the Elizabeth Amateur Radio Club who I am
hopeful would be interested in assisting.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">At our end we would outfit GHO with an additional
directional antenna (2.4m dish?) off either the North or South Network. This
antenna would have the maximum gain possible and in fact to keep within the 36db
limit we might even have to crank the power output of the router down a notch or
two.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">The antenna would be precisely aligned and point
towards Elizabeth, just above the horizon in terms of vertical
alignment.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Over at Elizabeth the Amateur Club has access to a
water tower on which its repeaters etc are located. It also has a node for
Air-stream. You can easily see it on Kettering road in
Elizabeth. </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"><a href="http://www.earc.org.au/on-air/">http://www.earc.org.au/on-air/</a></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">So they would configure an additional antenna
pointing at us with an attached router hooked into Air
stream. </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"> </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">It gets better though. Also on the water tower is a
<font size="3" face="Times New Roman">2,403.452 mhz beacon with an ERP of 20 dbm
transmitter which I think is 100mw. Put it this way. if we can hear that beacon
here in Victoria chances are we can work some wifi dx to
Adelaide.</font></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"><font size="2" face="Arial"></font></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">The distance between the water tower and GHO is
about 692.5km, enough for the world record.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">The idea would be to use off the shelf wifi gear,
unamplified. With that distance we would also break the amplified record at
the same time. </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">cheers</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Peter VK3PB</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"> </font></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"> </font><font size="2" face="Arial"></font></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="mw@freenet.net.au" href="mailto:mw@freenet.net.au">mw@freenet.net.au</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="p.berrett@optusnet.com.au" href="mailto:p.berrett@optusnet.com.au">'Peter Berrett'</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 28, 2011 10:18
AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> RE: [MLB-WIRELESS] World Wifi
record</div>
<div><br></div>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Hi
Peter!<br><br>It’s a noble project indeed, but I suspect that it will need a
fair bit of advance planning before beginning any actual attempts!
:-}<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Across
400km, you have two quite significant problems to
overcome:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2" class="MsoListParagraph"><!--[if !supportLists]--><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><span style="mso-list: Ignore">1.<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></font></span></span></font><!--[endif]--><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Fresnel
zone: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 18pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">At
200 km, the Fresnel zone of 2.4GHz signal expands to about 112m. That
means that if the earth were completely flat, you would need antenna heights
112m above the ground at each end to make the link
work.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p style="TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2" class="MsoListParagraph"><!--[if !supportLists]--><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><span style="mso-list: Ignore">2.<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></font></span></span></font><!--[endif]--><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">And
here is the killer - curvature of the earth.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 18pt" class="MsoListParagraph"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">When
you are sitting on top of a mountain about 3146m above sea level, and
looking across the sea, the distance to the horizon is about 200km. That
means you need another mountain 400km across the sea that is also 3146m high
before you can *<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">just</span></b>*draw a
straight line between the two ends. And that’s not taking refraction
into effect (which tends to bend paths toward the earth surface, and thus
making the required heights even higher!)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">So
the first step to a world record attempt is to locate some feasible
locations! Now, considering that Australia’s highest point is Mt
Kosciuszko in NSW, at 2228m above sea level, I suspect that you may not be
able to find suitable locations in SA or Vic :-}<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
note that NZ has more than 10 peaks higher than the required levels, so that
may be a good place to start!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">And
may I also make an open offer: I would be delighted to donate some
MikroTik equipment to any serious project aimed at a world record attempt!
:-)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Good
luck!<br><br>Cheers, Mike.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">MIKROTIK
CERTIFIED TRAINING DATES AND COURSES NOW CONFIRMED:
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">February
2012 - Melbourne, Australia<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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- Tuesday 14th Friday to 17th February (2
classes)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">MTCRE
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">follow
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<a href="mailto:melbwireless-bounces@wireless.org.au">melbwireless-bounces@wireless.org.au</a>
[mailto:melbwireless-bounces@wireless.org.au] <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Peter Berrett<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, 27 December 2011 10:30
PM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b>
<a href="mailto:melbwireless@wireless.org.au">melbwireless@wireless.org.au</a><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> [MLB-WIRELESS] World Wifi
record<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi
all</span></font><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Would anyone out
there be interested in attempting the world unamplified 2.4 ghz wifi
record?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The record I think
is held by some Venezuelans (some Italians hold the 5.7 Ghz
record).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The strategy would
be as follows</span></font><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">1. Use an
established MW node such as GHO North as one end of the
link.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">2. Go about 400
km+ in the direction the node antenna is pointing and erect a node
and directional antenna, perhaps solar powered, with a small computer and high
gain antenna pointing at the MW node. Perhaps our friends at the Adelaide
wireless group could set up a node in their group pointing at
us? </span></font><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">3. Monitor 2.4 ghz
beacons and when there is some tropospheric ducting try the link. Or better
still just automate things so that when the station is heard it automatically
tries to transfer a video from one end of the link to the
other.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Successful transfer
of video = world record</span></font><o:p></o:p></p></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">cheers
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Peter
VK3PB</span></font><o:p></o:p></p></div>
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