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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->Hi
</span></font><st1:place><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Devon</span></font></st1:place><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>You did make one mistake in attributing a
quote to me which was in fact a quote from the ACA website.<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>Next <span class=GramE>time</span> I’ll
use ---quote begins--- and ---quote ends--- instead of ---- at the start and
finish of a quote.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>See below in </span></font><font
size=2 color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:green'>green</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>….<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Devon Starbuck
[mailto:dstarbuck@optushome.com.au] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, 4 March 2004 19:58<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'Dan Flett'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b>
owner-melbwireless@wireless.org.au<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [MLB-WIRELESS]
Commercial use of MW network</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Dan<br>
<br>
You make a good argument here, but unfortunately you are off the point and make
irrelevant assumptions. See below<span class=GramE>..<font color=red><span
style='color:red'>in</span></font></span><font color=red><span
style='color:red'> red, (HTML email :-()</span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=green face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:green'>(<span class=GramE>and</span>)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=GramE><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>A commercial premises</span></font></span><font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>, or any premises can host an MW node. </span></font><font size=2
color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:green'>(I agree)</span></font><font color=green><span style='color:green'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Subsequently, anybody may use that node
including the premises it is attached to, as long as the terms and conditions
of the supply of the premises and the supply of the services is not related in
any sense. If it is, then the question will arise. </span></font><font size=2
color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:green'>(If the company whose premises it is starts using the node in <span
class=GramE>it’s</span> business activities, then according to the ACA,
the node itself is commercial.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>I
believe that this is how the ACA itself sees this situation – as it
states in <span class=GramE>it’s</span> own fact sheet – see below)
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>This is easy to circumvent </span></font><font
size=2 color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:green'>(Playing funny buggers with the ACA is not a good idea, in my
opinion)</span></font><font color=green><span style='color:green'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Regards</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:place><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Devon</span></font></st1:place><font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'> Starbuck</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>PS, We do not need highly paid lawyers to
do this. :-)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: owner-melbwireless@wireless.org.au [<a
href="mailto:owner-melbwireless@wireless.org.au">mailto:owner-melbwireless@wireless.org.au</a>]
On Behalf <span class=GramE>Of</span> Dan Flett<br>
Sent: </span></font><st1:date Month="3" Day="4" Year="2004"><font size=2><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Thursday, March 04, 2004</span></font></st1:date><font
size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><st1:time Hour="19"
Minute="23"><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>7:23 PM</span></font></st1:time><font
size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
To: Melbourne Wireless<br>
Subject: RE: [MLB-WIRELESS] Commercial use of MW network<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
It does pay to RTFM, Dan. :)<br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:green'>For those who came in late – I am
referring to myself here.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>I am
actually in <span class=SpellE>favour</span> of businesses using our network
for free if we can use their equipment for free also – as I have stated
in my previous posts.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>But my
reading of the ACA fact sheets has resigned me to believing that Melbourne
Wireless and <span class=GramE>it’s</span> membership cannot legally
allow businesses to use their network equipment.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
I thought it was time at this point in the discussion to actually go to the ACA
website and read the fact sheets. There are links to these fact sheets
from the Wiki - <a href="http://melbourne.wireless.org.au/wiki/?LicensesFAQ">http://melbourne.wireless.org.au/wiki/?LicensesFAQ</a><br>
<br>
There is a questionnaire on the above Wiki page that helps to determine whether
your network service is exempt from having to have a Carrier Licence. I found
the questionnaire page slightly misleading though. Question 3 asks "Is/are
the network units used for the sole purpose of supplying carriage services on a
non-commercial basis?"<br>
<br>
In the case we have been discussing, the actual provision of supplying carriage
services is non-commercial, even though the nature of the communications is
commercial. This is a distinction we need to be aware of. The
commercial or non-commercial nature of the provision a network service is not
necessarily related to the commercial or non-commercial nature of the
communications<font color=red><span style='color:red'> (or communicator)</span></font> that
use that service.<br>
<br>
In my reading of the questionnaire I saw that it was possible to interpret
Question 3 as referring to only the provision of the service, not the nature of
the data flowing through the service. But a questionnaire like this is
only a guide to how the legislation works and it doesn't deal with the finer
points.<br>
<br>
I then read this ACA fact sheet: <font color=navy><span style='color:navy'><a
href="http://www.aca.gov.au/consumer_info/fact_sheets/industry_fact_sheets/fsi29.htm">http://www.aca.gov.au/consumer_info/fact_sheets/industry_fact_sheets/fsi29.htm</a></span></font>
"Wireless LANs and exempt non-commercial networks"<br>
<br>
There are some tests that can be applied to your network to see if it fits the
concept of "non-commercial", and thereby be exempt from requiring a
carrier licence.<br>
<br>
Test number 2 is this:<font color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=green face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:green'>(ACA quote starts here)</span></font><font size=2><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
----<br>
2. Nature of persons involved in the use of the network<br>
<br>
What is the nature of the persons involved in the use of the network to supply
carriage services and their day-to-day activities?<br>
<br>
For example, the 'persons involved' could be a company or corporation using the
network for business purposes. Such use is unlikely to be for purely
non-commercial purposes. <font color=red><span style='color:red'>(Wrong Dan)
This refers to the nature of persons SUPPLYING the service NOT those using the
service. It ONLY makes reference to the use <u>and TO SUPPLY</u>. If the two
are seperate the above para does not apply.)</span></font><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'> </span></font><font color=green><span style='color:green'>(This
here quote is from the fact sheet on the ACA website, not me.<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>Check the above link.<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>This means that this is how the ACA itself
interprets the concept of a commercial network)</span></font><br>
----<font color=navy><span style='color:navy'> </span></font><font color=green><span
style='color:green'>(ACA quote ends here)</span></font><br>
<br>
So that pretty much quashes the distinction between the nature of the provision
of the network service, and the nature of the use of that network service. <font
color=red><span style='color:red'>(No, it only makes it <span class=GramE>clear,</span>
if the user and supplier are the same then 'thier nature' becomes a test)</span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'> </span></font><font color=green><span
style='color:green'>(Here I am commenting on the ACA interpretation – I believe
that they choose to make no distinction between commercial supply of a network
and commercial use of a network.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>I
myself <i style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><span style='font-style:italic;
mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>can</span></i> tell the difference. </span></font></span></font><font
size=2 color=green face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;mso-ascii-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-hansi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
color:green;mso-char-type:symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:Wingdings'><span
style='mso-char-type:symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:Wingdings'>J</span></span></font><font
size=2 color=green><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:green'><span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>Certainly a person more versed in
communications <span class=GramE>law,</span> and just plain law than myself
could make a different interpretation.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>
</span>But the fact that the ACA itself assumes that commercial use of a
network means that network itself is commercial means that the deck is stacked
against <span class=GramE>us )</span></span></font><font size=2><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
<br>
So what if </span></font><st1:City><st1:place><font size=2><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Melbourne</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font
size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Wireless Inc. was to somehow find the
money to get a Carrier Licence? Well even then it probably wouldn't allow
the nodes on the MW network to accommodate commercial use because Melbourne
Wireless does not own any nodes itself. <font color=red><span style='color:
red'>(Somewhat irrelevant, refer Melb Wireless's articles and MOU)</span></font><br>
<br>
The legislation and the fact sheets refer to <i style='mso-bidi-font-style:
normal'><font color=green><span style='color:green;font-style:italic;
mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>owners</span></font></i> of "base
stations" (we call them nodes) needing to have Carrier Licences.
That means each and every one of us who owns equipment that comprises a
node. We'd all need our own individual Carrier Licences. <font color=red><span
style='color:red'>(Wrong again. A Carrier eg. Melb Wireless in your example,
can license the node from the property)</span></font><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'> </span></font><font color=green><span style='color:green'>(Melbourne
Wireless Inc. is <i style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><span style='font-style:
italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>not</span></i> a Carrier.<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>It facilitates the network by getting
interested persons together and encourages them to link to each other, but it
can not be said to be a network provider itself)</span></font><br>
<br>
So <span class=SpellE>wether</span> you are philosophically opposed to
commercial use of the MW network or not, the law of the land says we can't
allow it. <font color=red><span style='color:red'>( Wrong agian, My
opinion is we cannot do it for commercial advantage, that is my understanding
of the law and will stick to it untill proven otherwise!)</span></font> <font
color=green><span style='color:green'>(Please take some time to peruse the fact
sheets on the ACA website – with an open mind.<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>Whatever you think, unless you’re
a lawyer MW can only take your and my views as the opinions of lay persons)</span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'> </span></font>I imagine that if we had an
army of high-priced lawyers we might be able to challenge that law. But
we don't.<font color=red><span style='color:red'> (Wrong again, we dont need to
challenge the law. They need to take action against us first, and that is
totally unlikely given it is legal in my opinion)</span></font><span
class=GramE> <font color=navy><span style='color:navy'> </span></font><font
color=green><span style='color:green'>(</span></font></span><font color=green><span
style='color:green'>OK True, but we don’t want them taking action against
us, we want to be on their good side – my point is we can’t afford
court action</span></font><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>)</span></font>
Our Melbourne Wireless committee could lobby the government at some point in
the future if the sentiment of the MW membership was more receptive in such
commercial arrangements.<font color=red><span style='color:red'> (Oh,
commercial arrangements now. There <u>IS no commercial arrangement</u>
between the user and MW, therefore it is <u>TOTALLY </u>legal. A commercial
arrangement would be unlawful if MW entered into one.)</span></font> <font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'> </span></font><font color=green><span
style='color:green'>(The arrangement is this: you can use our equipment if we
can use yours – not a monetary arrangement but an arrangement
nonetheless) </span></font>But as far as I see, that's not how it is right
now. And that's how community organisations work - democratically.<font
color=red><span style='color:red'> (WHAT? If a MW member wishes to supply
services to somebody, they do not need MW's approval...bah).</span></font><font
color=green><span style='color:green'> (If <span class=SpellE>MW’s</span>
members act as rogue agents do you think that the ACA would be happy to allow
MW to have a carrier <span class=SpellE>licence</span>?<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>MW does <span class=SpellE>favour</span>
the soft-touch approach to making and imposing rules on <span class=GramE>it’s</span>
members – this is great for fostering a grass-roots movement but unlikely
to get us approval for a carrier <span class=SpellE>licence</span> even if we
could afford it.)</span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>The rest is relevant given the above
assumptions</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>How does all this
affect our quest to find Backbone node sites? In the case of commercially
owned premises we can't offer bandwidth on the MW network as inducement for
them allowing us to locate nodes on their property. And the owner who
does allow someone else's node to operate from their premises is open to all
sorts of legal and insurance risks. We need to think of other ways of rewarding
those who would house our nodes, or appeal to the goodness of their hearts.<br>
<br>
It seems that the people who are by far most likely to be willing to house
nodes are those who have already made their minds up that the
"freenet" concept that Melbourne Wireless facilitates is a Good
Thing(tm). As the law currently stands, Melbourne Wireless is destined to
remain a grass-roots network.<br>
<br>
The best way of improving network connectivity is to simply increase awareness
of Melbourne Wireless and it's principles which in turn increases the
membership and node density. We also need to do as much as we can to get
the as many of the current members (and those who have registered in Locfinder)
active on the network. Which is exactly what Melbourne Wireless has been
doing for the past two years.<br>
<br>
To finish this rather long post I will say that community organisations forming
alliances with commercial interests is by no means unheard of. I was involved
with Melbourne's community TV station Channel 31 for a number of years - since
before they went on air in 1993. The costs of running a television
station are huge - even if all your staff are volunteers, and especially if you
are very limited in the funds you can raise through advertising. Channel
31 was only able to get on air by making an agreement with the Harness Racing
Board. The HRB basically paid for Channel 31's transmitter in return for
being able to put telecasts of Harness Racing to air on Saturday nights.
There were those who were opposed to the HRB's involvement, but the simple fact
is Channel 31 would not have gotten on air without them.<br>
<br>
Melbourne Wireless is a different case, of course. It is possible for us
to get some sort of network going without commercial help, it's just a question
of how widespread the network will be and how fast it will grow. It's up
to us to make the network the best it can be given the restraints of the law.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
To unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@wireless.org.au<br>
with "unsubscribe melbwireless" in the body of the message</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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