[MLB-WIRELESS] Re: " " Now: cara'XML'ising node locations

[Toliman]

----- Original Message -----
From: "evilbunny" <evilbunny at sydneywireless.com>
To: <melbwireless at wireless.org.au>
Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 1:34 AM
Subject: Re: [MLB-WIRELESS] Re: " " Now: cara'XML'ising node locations


> Hello Toliman,

hi evilbunny. long time no reply.

> <snip>
>
> People should know now this is a publicly available database,

yikes, whoa. too much feedback; i was just giving some critical feedback.
the tracking/locational reference metadata idea has merit, but it's
application was the important aspect of the previous conversation.

you took a brief critique and turned it into a vengeful rebuttal that
answered each question with malice.
and maybe, possibly, just a dash of evil.

> I've taken reasonable measures to protect what data we thought
> shouldn't be let out to the public, again only email address is
> compulsory, and is NEVER EVER given out at all...

ok

> If you can see how this system (which is in wide use, both in
> Australia and over seas with varying systems of implementation)
> breaches any privacy acts in reality and you're a lawyer and/or have a
> law degree sure I might actually take the advice...

There are two major constants in online life. a lack of  understanding and
the lack of lawyers to explain complex legal issues. we've hit both.

Responsibility is a moral, ethical and legal (and also ambigously defined)
position, the definition of law extends to provide precise responsibility
for actions and consequences; lawyers then struggle to place events,
situations and sitations within the conditions of law and legal precedent.
the intent of the act is also taken into account.

the IDEA is to assume responsibility for anything, even being wrong. wether
the letter-accurate definition of culpability is defined as "putting
someone's exact GPS co-ordinates onto a public website for unknown
purposes", is irrelevant and obscuring the issue. i don't want to go down
the road where it is an issue at all, and i'd rather cut off that branch of
possibilities than face the inevitable number of privacy and ethical
guidelines anyone would have to overcome.

past those first few basic concerns, who knows. lets move on.

> As for the tracking, this is a value add and again isn't compulsory
> nor even built yet... (so how's that supposed to breach privacy
> again?)

as you believe, yes. (yes. that's not an answer, because, that's not a
question)

> If people wish to use it, that is there privilege as both myself and
> the company I work for are offering this on a good faith system, if
> people abuse it then of course action will be taken, and any valid
> requests to have information removed will also be given what ever care
> is needed, depending on situation etc etc etc...
>
> Then of course if you wish to push the point the site could be always
> hosted in the US, I've had generous offers from community groups over
> there as well, international law is such fun stuff to play with...

again, way off track here. the objective of posting an idea to a mailng list
for feedback is to take all replies as constructive feedback, not bitterly
complain, raise a white flag and retreat in the face of any sign of
opposition. instead of a counter-argument, you've just unloaded some
rhetoric-filled arsenal of emotional baggage here, and it has no relevance
to the original point.

> Another thing of note worthiness, any member of an association, ALL
> information held on them can and has to be available to the general
> public. This includes but not limited to your house address, perhaps
> even what gear, mac address etc your using, email address (if
> kept/used) etc etc etc... time to get post office boxes?

public, and private have exclusive, opposable definitions. you have extended
them somewhat from the original intent of my post by an excessive margin.
about your claim to disclosing membership details to the public, i don't
have knowledge of this, since i'm not a member or on committee of any
wireless association. yet. but i doubt association rules would allow a
breach of privacy under current privacy legislation, also under model of
association rules. i think you might have some part of the rules out of
context. as i recall, the disclosure of public information is so members can
maintain up-to-date contact/correspondence with each other,  to people that
request it, and to other members. a 'members list' does not contain 450
street addresses, it could contain 450 phone numbers, 450 email addresses,
450 names, or any combination thereof. who knows, who cares.

> There is a whole lot more here that will leak privacy then a
> non-mandatory database that people can choose to make use of...

and you've missed the point. the problem is, there are the paranoid among us
(well, me for starters) who dislike the idea of disclosing detailed, updated
locational information on the whim of someone who has arbitrary (i.e. none
to overwhelming) control over it's use. it's not the data being stored, or
the people accessing the data, it's the principle reason for storing it in
the first place.

it is a concern (regardless of how small you imagine it to be). acknowledge
& get over it.

regarding privacy 'leaks', i'm sure with the right clues you could track
down someone with a 'sherlock holmes' / 'daryl zero' like vigilance and
understanding of the human character, deducing their parentage, religion,
birthdate, address, income, job, sexual preference, choice of linux distro,
text editor, email package, soft drink, etc. all public information, if you
ask the right questions.... and all without entering or reading a single
locational co-ordinate.

leaking info into public disclosure is not the issue, its a deflection of
another issue.

> Privacy is a myth... - some dude from Sun

and, thats not the quote. this one took me a while, finding and verifying
the right quote, after looking for various places, rumours and memories of
van eck radiation, oracle, sun, antitrust, MS quotes, etc...
                        "You have zero privacy now. Get over it"

  --"Sun CEO Scott McNealy, in answering a reporter's question on Jini
failing to protect a consumer from being tracked while connected to a
network."

Toliman.
We who willingly suffer fools gladly, suffer knowing they have not taken
anything from the experience.

> Best regards,
>  evilbunny                            mailto:evilbunny at sydneywireless.com
>
> http://www.SydneyWireless.com - Exercise your communications
> freedom to make it do what you never thought possible...


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