[MLB-WIRELESS] Sydney, AWA, fees, inquiry

[David Saab]

Sorry to take so long to reply, Dean. I have had a pretty busy time this
weekend so far..

To respond, yes, I believe that people will pay whatever they need to
pay to build an AP if they want one. We have built heaps already, and
they are working fine. 

In addition, I have done hard numbers, and they don't cost anything like
a $1000 if you do it right. It can be done with as little as a few
hundred dollars.

Remember the purpose of this is so a group of people can gain access to
each other. The purpose is not to build a coporate network to be taken
advantage of by an hierachial organisation with particular goals.

Built by the people, to service the people.

Its quality and redundancy (the only 2 real issues that can be brought
up as arguments against this model) will both become moot, as long as
there are enough nodes. (the why is obvious to network designers)

It is true that the collective paying for high quality nodes will
possibly benefit the total quality and redundancy of the network,
however the downside is, that though everybody is paying for these extra
facilities, not everybody will receive the benefits.

At least our current model, is that the people who want to use the
facilities the most, takes the time and money and effort to build it,
and they also receive the most gain.

The official nodes means that certain individuals will gain facilities
that outstrips the norm by a significant factor.

I don't want to pay for somebody else's access. But I'll pay for my own.

Just to really make this point, I'll refer to an example used that I
once heard.

It isn't for our benefit that the baker gets up at 3am to bake the
bread, but for his own self interest. However we still get fresh bread
in the morning.

By this I mean, if its in everybodies self interest to put up a node so
he/she can be part of the network, then they will. The result being that
we get a reliable network with redundancy.

The internet was founded on this concept.

You don't think ISP's have lots of bandwidth to make you guys happy do
you? The do it so they can make a profit and to feed their kids, pay
their mortgage and afford their car. They do it for their self interest.

The result is that you get the internet without having to for the
building of an ISP. (the cost of which to service this number would cost
around $150,000.00)

So to conclude, I say NO to membership fees!

D.


-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Collins [mailto:dean.collins at bigpond.com] 
Sent: Saturday, 20 April 2002 2:44 PM
To: dsaab at saabenterprises.com; 'Clae'; melbwireless at wireless.org.au
Cc: wgstructure at wireless.org.au
Subject: RE: [MLB-WIRELESS] Sydney, AWA, fees, inquiry

David, how many people do you see spending the $1000 for an AP? If
everyone
feels that you can get the density required with just people buying
their
own then that is great BUT it seems like these costs are better to be
shared
over a number of member rather than just single individuals.

Dean


 -----Original Message-----
From: 	owner-melbwireless at wireless.org.au
[mailto:owner-melbwireless at wireless.org.au]  On Behalf Of David Saab
Sent:	Saturday, 20 April 2002 2:12 PM
To:	'Clae'; melbwireless at wireless.org.au
Cc:	wgstructure at wireless.org.au
Subject:	RE: [MLB-WIRELESS] Sydney, AWA, fees, inquiry

Actually,

I have changed my position in this.

I don't want to be paying my fees, so that an executive few is going to
be in control of the money, and spending it on what and how they want.

To quote the new mission statement:

"We do not aim to make money - as all funds raised are directly invested
back into the network either for operational costs or
expansion/improvement of current coverage or services."

Why can't we raise money on each item that we want developed? This means
that the group has some control on what ends up being raised for?

As for examples of groups charging fees, lets take a long hard look at
this. There is always some corruption about how the money is spent in
small numbered organisations as clubs, and we are talking about a whole
another kettle of fish here. (We could end up talking about thousands of
dollars.)

Why can't we keep to the people themselves build the nodes they want,
and interconnect with who they want?

Isn't this all a way to get control to an elite few?

Dave.


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-melbwireless at wireless.org.au
[mailto:owner-melbwireless at wireless.org.au] On Behalf Of Clae
Sent: Saturday, 20 April 2002 5:30 AM
To: melbwireless at wireless.org.au
Cc: wgstructure at wireless.org.au
Subject: [MLB-WIRELESS] Sydney, AWA, fees, inquiry

Further to the discussion about our relationship with Sydney, their fees
etc.

In light of the current Federal inquiry into broadband wireless, I
believe it would be a good idea to be forming alliances, not breaking
them at this point.  It is vital that the amateur/community/hobby
wireless movement in Australia presents as united a front as possible
to this inquiry.  If we spend all our time squabbling with other
groups about who's a profiteer, and who is the most community minded,
we will end up looking like a total waste of time to the feds.

In fact, I think it would be a good idea to have a national
representative body for the wireless freenet movement, outside and
above the control of any of the regional networks.  This body should
be disconnected from the operation of any actual networks, and
operate solely as a lobbying voice on a national level, and to
facilitate communication and co-operation between networks.

I would like to point out that charging fees does not make AWA a
profit-making business.  A co-op or association can charge whatever
fees they see fit, they are simply forbidden from distributing any
excess above operating costs as profit to members or shareholders.
Any excess must be put back into the organisation.  Even your local
footy club charges fees.  If the directors of a co-op or ass'n were
found to be distributing profits, they could be charged with a crime
under the appropriate act.

Let's not dismiss the Sydney crew until we know more.  I believe
their answer on the message board more than adequately counters each
of the criticisms levelled at them.

I won't even get into the discussion about whether _we_ should be
charging a fee. :-)

Clae.
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